Substituting Deathwatch?

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Substituting Deathwatch?

Post  R.I.K on Sun Jun 26, 2011 2:34 am

It appears that Deathwatch will be coming to a temporary close after our next few missions so I thought I'd ask if anyone has any suggestions or would like to discuss a substitute for Deathwatch prior to the end of the RP.

Personally, other than 40K and the campaign Anth has in mind, I'd prefer to see that we stick to a Warhammer role play, i.e. Either Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader or even Fantasy.
However after going to the pub with Anth and John last night John brought up his time of playing Kthulu and explaining past stories and gaming experiences within the RP and I have to admit I was hooked, it sounded like so much fun, despite the fact that it brings an entire new twist to role playing as your character is human and can die just as easily as being shot. That is rather to hitting someone with a lasgun and dealing nine wounds out of eleven and surviving when in reality you’d likely die. It is also a game where losing sanity points are more of a threat than losing hit points, causing trauma, phobia and little insane quirks. So I’d recommend that as a possible substitute, just at least to try out.

There is another RP me and a few friends came across about a zombie apocalypse called ‘All Flesh Must be Eaten’ which could essentially be fun, but I have personally not looked up any of the rules, all I am aware of is that it is a completely different system to that of Deathwatch, Dark Heresy, etc. Similar to Kthulu.

I’ve experienced playing Fantasy and Dark Heresy on several occasions and I’ve always enjoyed them, arguably Fantasy more so but I prefer a 40K atmosphere. I am aware a couple of others have also played Dark Heresy but not Rogue Trader, which is essentially the same but with a little more diversity in mission, race and careers. So I’d propose Rogue Trader as a potential substitute also.

Thoughts?
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Re: Substituting Deathwatch?

Post  z4carlo on Sun Jun 26, 2011 7:09 am

My thoughts are as follows:

# most people know and like the 40k backdrop, myself included
# i think we have just about managed to finally have everyone with a good understanding of the DW / fantasy flight RPG rules
# for me the same game with the same characters is just about starting to get a little stale (how long we been playing it on and off now? 6 months?

For these reasons my opinion would be that we should take a break from DW, and play one of the other FFG RPG 40k or fantasy would be fine with me what ever anyone wants to play for at least a short while. But ill be away for July so if yous are starting soon then i will have to join in after a while.

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Re: Substituting Deathwatch?

Post  Dan on Mon Jun 27, 2011 6:58 pm

z4carlo wrote:My thoughts are as follows:

# most people know and like the 40k backdrop, myself included
# i think we have just about managed to finally have everyone with a good understanding of the DW / fantasy flight RPG rules


I agree with these comments, though I'm still really into the whole Deathwatch thing. Having spent so much on books & models for this I'd be gutted to ditch it!

If we were to change I'd want to stick with the 40k setting.

Also, I know Chris joined because of the idea of Role Playing a Deathwatch Marine, I'm sure he'll share his thoughts, but I think he'll be in line with my thinking.

Not keen of moving out of the 40k setting like. I could tell from Anth's missions as GM that he prefered to more 'human' style of RPG such as in Dark heresy or Rogue Trader, as strolling around & acting like an Astartes didn't fit with how the missions were set up.

John point blank refused to RP Astartes for this very reason, too much 'well im harder then you so i'll hit you' for him, though I really enjoyed this.

Perhaps Dark Heresy would be a good compromise?
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Re: Substituting Deathwatch?

Post  chrispcarter on Mon Jun 27, 2011 8:17 pm

As Dan has alluded to I was really drawn to the idea of RPing a marine, not sure if I would be interested if we switched away from DW, but I know I am a relative newcomer so I haven't had the chance to become bored with it yet.

Are people sick of their chars or just marines in general? Could always try playing a new team if it's the former, so people could try some different classes / chapters, though obviously that wouldn't help with the latter...
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Re: Substituting Deathwatch?

Post  adamhartnett on Mon Jul 04, 2011 9:46 am

i think that a few people are getting sick as were almost unkillable now
the fact that everyones stats are so high means we never miss and we always hit waay too hard kind of takes the challenge out of everything

i vote for something without guns... fantasy!! way more variation you can be anything from a halfling pig farmer to an elvish knight

its more of a thinking rp because if you do something wrong you will die so youve got to plan careful ... its alot more thought based and imo alot more fun

my vote goes to fantasy
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Re: Substituting Deathwatch?

Post  chrispcarter on Mon Jul 04, 2011 7:07 pm

...but Adam, you never fire your gun anyway!

Also if you recall, 3 PCs died in the last mission (albeit killed by other PCs), and Ian burned about 3 fate points.

I can see the point about our attacks being too powerful at times - perhaps we need to face more numerous foes?

Or there could be more elements in missions where survival doesn't necessarily equate success? i.e. failed to protect something or other, time limits?
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Re: Substituting Deathwatch?

Post  z4carlo on Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:23 am

Since my character died ive been having a read of the core rule book and rites of battle a little too, trying to decide what i would want to play as another character if we carry on with DW, my thoughts on the roleplay we play is as follows (thoughts ive had for a while but might as well bring em up now)

# we do not play DW to its full extent at all, the DW ruleset has been described as the most complex of the 40k systems (compared to Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader).
main cases in point - hordes and cohesion, i understand that rob isnt 100% happy with the hordes system and that we all basically ignore cohesion but they are basically the essence of what makes Deathwatch Deathwatch and not Dark Heresy with space marines. This is partly the reason why we never have to make decisions we just turn up and play it through imo. The GM section of the rulebook says that a DW team will only realy be challenged when they face a combination of a powerful horde led by elites/a master, then they have to chose which to try to bring down first.

BUT im not blaming the GM style at all, those who guest GM have no time to get the whole group comfortable with the horde rules within a single session and i agree with rob that they are quite clumsy imo.

Basically we arent realy playing DW imo we are playing Dark Heresy with characters that are too powerful for the settings and encouters that we face, we are Space Marines (we will not run from a possible encounter and will not back down) so the choice to stay and fight or run is never realy relavent, if we dont have to make any tactical desicions during the encounters then there is very little to the game imo!

#we move from one encounter to the next with very little required skill wise in between, the investigation sections of the sessions basically never require investigation skills (have we ever used anything such as inquire or scrutiny, any of the lore skills?), people have and take probably 90-95% combat or combat enhancing skills which is fine in a DW game but as mentioned above when these encounters are relatively simple tactically we have quite a 1 dimentional game.

#Renown and Requision is a pain in the arse, we spend ages at the sytart working out what we wana take and what would be useful, half of it never get used and the GM can bearly ever keep track of the stuff we have taken, therefore anything other than the storm bolter of 'i shoot, you die' or the sword of 'better than anything even this game is supposed to have' is basically put to the wayside. But as long as we play DW it cant be avoided. If we played any of the other systems it would be drastically reduced imo and people would feel much more protective over thier gear, rather then it being requisitioned on a week by week basis (Dan excluded from this who bums his shotgun)

#lots of D100 rolls basically cant fail, this in my opinion isnt because the system is flawed, or because space marines are too powerful but because we use only 2-3 stats (BS and T or WS S and T) and take allmost exclusively combat skills so we are rank 3-4 chars 100% tooled for combat.

#people hardly roleplay at all, worst case in point adam he actively BADLY plays a space wolf but not many others will ever do an action just because its what there character would do rather than it being the best thing to do in the current situation.

Ive been having a look at the Fantasy rules a little and they do actually interest me, it has a different system open to many more possibilites (not just D100) is very expansive and much more perilous. I think it would be great to give that a try and has my vote.
Adam does anyone actually own the dice ect, i was considering getting the core box set seems to the usual FFG high standard and has more than just a rule book.

Ill end by saying I have realy enjoyed DW allways, think Rob has GM'ed it great and i enjoy hanging out with everyone each week. But i think that recently Rob has had to force events of interest to happen rather than them just coming about by themselves and that we can move on to a system which more suits the way we play. Oh and thanks if youve read all of my massive rambling post!
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Re: Substituting Deathwatch?

Post  chrispcarter on Tue Jul 05, 2011 6:41 pm

Nicely put mate.

I did have a read through the core rules myself and I have to agree we are not quite milking the full rules for DW. I haven't read into the enemies' rules as much (still trying to get my head around the player part to be honest, but I will try to get them studied), but I agree that we haven't been using squad mode and cohesion to their full effect yet - this is something I have been campaigning for - I think we can all agree Strongpoint came in handy to help us Kill Errata and Haakon, for example - but I know we have still barely scratched the surface. I am going to keep trying to take it further whenever we do play, because so much of Cristus' skill set is geared towards command and cohesion (rather than just pure combat) that it would be a waste not to.

The fact that any squad member can initiate a squad mode ability is something we really overlooked, as it would allow us to form shooty and assaulty subset who could use bolter assault and furious charge at the same time. I have been thinking on it but I wasn't quite comfortable with the rules yet so I was waiting until I'd had time to read them over again before trying to use it in a game.

Obviously stuff like this would only make us MORE powerful, but as you say I think we need to be challenged a bit more. This is no criticism to Rob or anyone else who has GMed (whenever I have contemplated ideas for games it brings me out in a cold sweat) - I know that balancing challenge with enjoyability has to be an absolute nightmare, but for my part, I would say that if we have to take it up a notch to where characters are under real threat regularly and have to fight tooth and nail to win or even survive - I am fine with that. That is what the Astartes are there for, after all. It would be interesting to have to make some target priority decisions, or to have to fight through enemies or retreat rather than kill them all!

If I'm honest, I'd also like to see a bit more ranged combat - all of our battles seem to take place at extremely close quarters, and it would be nice to get involved in some proper firefights with dug in enemies that require using cover and advancing under fire and provide for some difficult shots and so on.

I also agree more investigation could be good too - I know it's more fun to just RP our investigations but as you say there is a whole glut of skills that are going essentially ignored. For my part, some allies that I could use my command skills on would be much appreciated!

As for renown and requsition - I think that has suffered a bit lately due to us being dropped into unknown situations. It's hard to know what to take when you don't know what you're facing, so we tend to take a range of kit, some of which ends up being unused. However if we increase the numbers of enemies etc. things like blind grenades or auspexes may become essential.

I think the rolls that can't fail could be offset by numbers of enemies or tougher ones - it's all very well always hitting an enemy, but if there are ten more where he came from, or if it doesn't really harm him, then it does you little good - or if killing a bunch of enemies means that their leader escapes and your mission fails, then you need to know when not to just wade in.

As for the roleplaying element, I think people do RP at times, but it's harder to do in combat. I know for my part I am failing a little at this - I should be shooting rather than charging in "because everyone is", and Cristus should be yelling for you all to stay in formation. Again this was something I planned to address once I was more comfortable with the rules, which is about now to be honest! We should probably encourage a little more communication during missions as well as most of us just tended to spend 90% the mission without saying anything - Errata
and Luthor's argument's aside.

Anyway, that's just my two pence, and I know I've said this before so I won't go on and on, but I still think there is more to explore in Deathwatch. However I know I am a newcomer and I haven't played as much as you guys, so I know my opinion isn't one that is going to sway you that much.
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Re: Substituting Deathwatch?

Post  chrispcarter on Tue Jul 05, 2011 6:47 pm

On re-reading the above it does come off as a bit... whiny, so I just want to re-iterate, I am not complaining about any of the players or the GM.

It's up to us as a group to make sure we are getting the most out of these games - I have brought up some issues that bothered me there but I have never spoken to Rob about them, so I wouldn't expect him to have known about them - he's not a mind reader after all (otherwise it would probably rain blood or spawn daemon princes wherever he went).

As I've said above, I don't envy the GM at all and I really do appreciate the effort that goes into running it, as I have really enjoyed playing every game so far (even if Cristus hasn't)!
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Re: Substituting Deathwatch?

Post  Rob on Wed Jul 06, 2011 2:04 am

right i have read all the posts and agree with most of the points. its really hard to balance the game and keep it interesting. i will try to do a more investigation game but its hard to find a balance. Richy proved that your all mentalists and get bored if theres no action so i need to have a think.

The new fantasy rp will not work seeing as it is capped at 5pcs, lame i know but its true as you need action cards and you only get enough for 4 in the main game and 1 extra in the exspansion. and its like "£100 + so it would have to be old fantasy.

i would like to propose that we do a tester game for rogue trader. a one of game that we could see if we like it and if we dont i will instantly drop it.

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Re: Substituting Deathwatch?

Post  Dan on Wed Jul 06, 2011 2:21 am

OK I drafted this before Robs post & I'm game for having a tester Rogue Trader sesh. Anyway, here are my thoughts.

Can't help but find myself agreeing with a lot of what Carlo has said and with what Chris has added.

Hordes with elites & masters would definitely test the team more than set encounters against a set number of bad guys where in the end we just kill-em-all. The tough choices have never really had to be made (until the last mission, when we fought Errata, Haakon & there mates.)

When I returned to the group from 'Paternity leave' our Xenos kill team had suddenly turned into a covert, Chaos hunting kill team & this lead me to fear that the group had moved away from what Deathwatch was about.

I have to say that Deathwatch appealed to me because of the Astartes vs alien element. & this leads me to me next point, while Carlo has commented that 90-95% of all advances have been combat related. This is not true. As you’ve all guessed I’m big on supporting my character with in-depth fluff. As such Memnon has had lot of alien related advances including laws, languages, etc as well as survival, stealth, silent move & tracking skills, non of which I ever really used.

The roll-playing was also something I wanted to get into, but felt daft when I as the only one putting on an Astartes voice. This is something I’d like to expand on, but can’t see it changing should the actual game itself change. Is Adam gonna play a dwarf in the same way he played a Spacewolf (ie, not at all).

This leads me on to another thought, I feel that Deathwatch has so much more to offer then we’ve done so far. Having been side-tracked by the whole chaos theme, we haven’t even looked at; investigating a Space Hulk, clearing a Genestealer cult from an underhive, countering Dark Eldar raiders, re-enforcing an imperial weak point vs an ork invasion, securing alien artifacts, encountered other imperial forces (exception rogue inquisitors) with different objectives… I can go on. All of these would be valid Deathwatch missions.

In Anth’s mission we were encouraged to act like Inquisitional agents & not Astartes. Something I couldn’t get my head around, being in the Astartes mind set of, I will not back down, you will fear me. The quote from Dorn stuck in my head ‘give me 100 Space Marines or a thousand other troops.’ I think that different people were trying to get different things from the project & ultimately this has led Anth, Adam & perhaps a few others to get ‘bored’ with it.

Just my perspective & not wanting to come across like I moaning . I loved every single game.

If it were up to me, I’d say stick with Deathwatch & see where it goes. The people who said they were getting bored now have the chance to introduce a new character & perhaps this can inject a bit more enjoyment into the game for them.

Also I’ve spent close to £100 on Deathwatch stuff , books models etc etc & would be gutted to see it wasted by moving onto pastures new. Just for my interest to be sparked, anther £100 spent & then other loss interest again.

I’m not closed to trying new things, just don’t feel DW is ready to be put to bed never to be seen again.
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Re: Substituting Deathwatch?

Post  z4carlo on Wed Jul 06, 2011 3:41 am

I think the reason people have gotten bored with the investigation side of things particularly in richy's mission is because its an in game investigation as opposed to us investigating, a subtle concept so ill expand...

Taking richy's as an example as it was the most recent, we turn up, turn on NAVI (manditory), get a map and decide where we are going to go (real life investigation but only last a few minutes of people faffing around looking at the map), then proced to move to the rooms and role the dice for the next 30 mins-hour? (not real life investigation. just next room, what do i see?, what do i need to roll?) richy broke it up well with the 3 items that required a bit of real-life solving but people need to be excited by more then just the opportunity to get another item!

So my point is (after rambling as allways, you see why i dont bother to write up the missions!) that the investigation part of the missions is basically nearly allways deciding the obvious course of action and then going through the motions just waiting for the next combat. The one obvious mission where this has been different is anths tower of riddles, this mission kept everyone very closely involved and allways interested. Now i dont want every week to be a set of riddle's but in my opinion the GM's need to allow the team to fail. We are nearly allways walking into our oppositions lair, the enemy will nearly allways have some kind of trap or plan, if we dont figure out that plan then we are setting ourselves up for walking into a combat that we cant win, if we do (and i dont mean i roll under my perception/intelligence so ive figured it out) then we can side track and ambush the ambushers for example!

That is how i would run it if/when i GM, i think anths mission struck it quite well, i understand that people are attached to there characters (i think Dan would actually cry if Memnon died) but the game would be much more exciting in my opinion if there was sumthing we had to figure out (especially even when we have figured it out we arnt told yes your right well done), if every door could hide the end of your character, not because the GM is mean but because you havent figured it out despite him giving you every possible opportunity.

Thats enough for now lets see what people think of that Very Happy
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Re: Substituting Deathwatch?

Post  adamhartnett on Wed Jul 06, 2011 4:41 am

the new fantasy game mode doesnt really work, but the older editions work fantastically if you have a look at them,

and i most certainly wouldnt be playing a dwarf dont like playing combat characters in fantasy
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Re: Substituting Deathwatch?

Post  R.I.K on Wed Jul 06, 2011 4:43 am

adamhartnett wrote:
and i most certainly wouldnt be playing a dwarf dont like playing combat characters in fantasy

Since when? Wink
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Re: Substituting Deathwatch?

Post  adamhartnett on Wed Jul 06, 2011 4:44 am

since i loved playing my halfling wizard :')
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Re: Substituting Deathwatch?

Post  z4carlo on Wed Jul 06, 2011 6:05 am

adamhartnett wrote:the new fantasy game mode doesnt really work, but the older editions work fantastically if you have a look at them

Whats wrong with the new edition?
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Re: Substituting Deathwatch?

Post  adamhartnett on Wed Jul 06, 2011 6:07 am

its too difficult to keep track of with all the new dice and token .. you dont actually use models its all cards

and a dwarf fighter can kill daemons in a turn

phils review Razz
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Re: Substituting Deathwatch?

Post  z4carlo on Wed Jul 06, 2011 6:14 am

Who's phil?

Personally, just from an overview, i thought that the dice system seemed to add more to it than just D100 system and that the cards are an aid not a difficulty.
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Re: Substituting Deathwatch?

Post  adamhartnett on Wed Jul 06, 2011 6:16 am

shauns dad, does rps with steve john etc.

you lose track of things though, apparantly
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Re: Substituting Deathwatch?

Post  Rob on Wed Jul 06, 2011 6:16 am

Dan you misunderstand me, I don't want to give up DW forever I just want to give it a rest so we don't overPlay it and get bored of it. And I pushed it towards chaos marines for that chapter because I asked the guys what they wanted to face an they told me traitor marines!

So my deathwatch game is set as follows,
One of you is the sole heir to a rogue trader title and your fathers ship has been through a almighty battle where he lost the majority of his officers. He sends his drinking gambling womanising son down to the imperial world to recruite some new officers. He is flying down to the planet and Neely crashes into a fighter aircraft been chased by an arbites shuttle. Lands and pays, kills, intimidates, seduces the police into letting the rouge pirate go and then employs him. He then proceeds to find the rest of the party in this way and hilarity and adventure ensures in whorehouses, prison, bars, and pit fights.

Thoughts!

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Re: Substituting Deathwatch?

Post  adamhartnett on Wed Jul 06, 2011 6:19 am

sounds good to me Very Happy
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Re: Substituting Deathwatch?

Post  z4carlo on Wed Jul 06, 2011 7:11 am

Im quite disapointed, personally i think all the FFG stuff ive read is realy good and was very interested in the addition of the unique dice and cards system.

The theme seems good Rob, i think the things to remember when thinking about Rogue Trader are that time and location/distance to be travelled seem to be of importance and that the team need to have alot of automony over where they go and what they do, the sessions need to be much more open than DW.
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Re: Substituting Deathwatch?

Post  Rob on Wed Jul 06, 2011 7:37 am

I have looked at it too and it does seem a bit cluttered. But we literally can't play it without 1 buying the set and 2 it is limited to 5 players and the GM.

Yes there's some pretty epic stuff that can happen during warp travel but that's the beauty of it. I want to give you guys more freedom in doing what you want to do. Breeds character progression, good role-play and intersting senarios!!!!

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Re: Substituting Deathwatch?

Post  z4carlo on Wed Jul 06, 2011 8:42 am

Well ive been having a look on ebay and having a read of some online reviews, ive found a few good reviews of the system saying that its new and interesting and relatively fast paced due to having all the info you need at your fingertips, ive also found a few bad reviews but as far as i can read into them all they say is 'HOW MUCH!?' and 'who the hell are FFG to think they can redesign WFRP!' as opposed to saying anything bad about the system.

Basically as far as i can tell it seems to be a few vocal RP diehards that think that they have turned it into a boardgame instead of a roleplay game (im kinda assuming this is the camp in which phil/john/steve fall!)

Anyways im willing to take the risk and have found a decent auction on ebay for the core set and the adventure's tool kit (adds a 5th player) along with another expansion which im gona bid on in the coming days, i hope 5 people will want to play with me over the summer as a should have a nice bit of free time Smile
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Re: Substituting Deathwatch?

Post  adamhartnett on Wed Jul 06, 2011 11:25 am

il give it a try Very Happy can always house rule things if certain things are rediculous
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